Walt Lindala

This episode brought to you by Cafe Imports, Minneapolis-based importers of fine specialty green coffees, independently owned and operated since 1993. Cafe Imports has been dedicated to decreasing its impact on the earth through renewable energy, carbon neutrality, and by supporting conservational efforts in places where quality coffee is grown and also where quality coffee is consumed. Where does your coffee come from?

Frida Waara

And by the National Parks of Lake Superior Foundation. As a nonprofit, we rely on support from listeners like you. If you like what you hear, please consider a donation.To learn more and make a gift, visit us at www.gosuperior.org.

Walt Lindala

Welcome to the Lake Superior Podcast. I'm Walt Lindala

Frida Waara

And I'm Frida Waara. We are made stronger by story. And there's no better source than the continent's largest body of freshwater, Lake Superior.

Walt Lindala

So join us as we highlight the five national parks that ring this greatest of the great lakes, meet the people, tour the places, and learn about the projects that make these parks and body of water so remarkable.

Frida Waara

This podcast made possible with the support of the National Parks of Lake Superior Foundation and Media Brew Communications.

Walt Lindala

I'm Walt Lindala And I'm Frida Waara. Welcome once again to the Lake Superior Podcast.Today, Frida, we are probably going to be talking about one of the biggest, best known incidents that happened on Lake Superior itself. And that is the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald on November 10, 1975. We're going to talk with somebody that I've had a chance to talk with over the years about this, a true expert on it.But, you know, just from my perspective, I kind of remember it because I was but a wee one, you know, but I've heard many stories about it, but it's really something. And I know you, you know, you had a career going in news and all that kind of stuff that what's your perspectives on this?

Frida Waara

You know, Walt, I was a newlywed. I had just been married about maybe eight weeks. We lived at the bottom of Hewitt Hill and the lake was roaring on the ninth.And my husband, we knew nothing about undertow. And he and his buddy, Rob Schmidt, put on their, I don't know how thick their, their wetsuits were at the time, but they went swimming and they were body surfing. And I remember I was standing on the shoreline, kind of petrified, holding a, you know, a cheap bottle of Popov vodka.It was more for me than for them. And then when the boys got done, you know, it didn't take too long and they were just, they were exhausted. You know, it was amazing, but they ran back to our little apartment on Hewitt street and Albert Martha Peterson lived upstairs.And I think they probably noticed that the water bill was a lot higher that, that month because the guys got in the shower together and just tried to get warm again. You know, it's, it's amazing how we were rocked by that storm. And then also, you know, losing the Fitzgerald.And this is way beyond the, the idea that, you know, just to have a crawl across the screen that there was, I believe it was Monday night football was happening at the time. And there was a crawl across the screen that, you know, they had thought that they might've lost a ship and it just paralyzed our community. It really was, we see storms, but we didn't know the repercussions.

Walt Lindala

So a gentleman joins us here now on the podcast to talk a little bit more about not only the Fitzgerald it's loss and such, but a bit of his connection to the great big lake here. And that is Fred Stonehouse. He is a maritime historian, author, lecturer, and bon vivant.Hello, Fred, welcome to the, welcome to the podcast.

Fred Stonehouse

Well, thank you. And what a great afternoon and certainly memories about the Fitzgerald.

Walt Lindala

Well, let's get right into this here a little bit, and we'll talk about you a little bit more, but, you know, give us a little bit of the background. There's a lot of people that listen in on this podcast that they may have heard about the Edmund Fitzgerald. They may have a little bit about it, but let's kind of jump right in here that what happened on that date in 1975.

Fred Stonehouse

Well, on that date in 1975 at about 7, 10 PM on November, 10 November, she dove for the bottom. She broke in the Lake Superior about 15 miles Northwest of Whitefish point. And therein not only lies the mystery of what happened to her and how it happened, but certainly continue the speculation about it after 50 years.

Walt Lindala

Now we kind of shared a little bit of our history. I mean, Frida in particular with that storm night and everything. What do you remember about that?

Fred Stonehouse

Well, what I remember was going out and having a drink with a friend in the old Clifton bar and coming out and going home that evening and popping on the TV. And, you know, just like Frida, all of a sudden there's the crawl going across the bottom of the screen. And Harry Reisner was reading the news about the Fitzgerald becoming a ghost ship, so to speak, disappearing from the radar screens.

Walt Lindala

Do you remember it being a particularly stormy stretch as well like Frida did?

Fred Stonehouse

I remember it really kicking. She was, she was a pretty good blow out there. I don't know how I would measure that, but I do know the water was pouring across the breakwaters in the lower harbor.

Walt Lindala

All right, now give us some details if you can about the vessel itself and some of its history as we are talking about a substantial vessel that went down.

Fred Stonehouse

Well, at the time she was the largest Great Lakes shore carrier on the lakes, period. She'd been built in 1958 at the River Rouge at the engineering works in River Rouge down in the Detroit area, 729 feet long, 29 members of the crew. She was the biggest, the biggest.She had set cargo records two and less than right as she was going through that 17 year career before she was lost. And it wasn't until the big thousand footers began coming out in 1970 that the Fitzgerald was relegated to a second and third and fourth place finish.

Frida Waara

You know, Fred, I've heard that the weather on Lake Superior that, that fateful night was described as a blizzard and a hurricane. How in the world would a ship still be out on the water with those conditions?

Fred Stonehouse

Well, this was a time when ships had the attitude that they can't sink, that they, they just pull their way through. That was the expectation of the, of the fleets, so to speak, on the Great Lakes. So that left the captain and the crew, I think with very little decision-making on this, the ship was due to be in Thug Island the following day to deliver cargo.And by golly, she was going to do it.

Walt Lindala

When you hear those kinds of stories, when that is the kind of thing that you, you look back on, how, how important was that attitude and, and how unfortunate was that attitude that resulted in this loss and this tragedy?

Fred Stonehouse

Well, it's certainly not an attitude you can put directly on the Fitzgerald as the only applicant of it. It was the way the industry thought at the time. It was the way mariners thought.It had been a long time since they had a shipwreck of any consequence. That was 1966 when Jay Morrell went down in Lake Huron with all hands, but, but one, one lone survivor from that ship. But she was an older boat.She was built in 1906, I think. Whereas the Fitzgerald in 58 was a comparative adolescent. She's only 17.On the lakes, you can expect to get at least 50 years out of your boat, maybe longer. Some of them were out there for a century.

Walt Lindala

That's interesting.

Fred Stonehouse

But the loss of her was really cataclysmic in terms of attitude. You know, the world had changed in that instance when Fitzgerald disappeared.

Frida Waara

You know, you're right. The world has changed. And that's, I guess now we, we would have forecasts, we would have digital, you know, the way that we would see what was happening on the lakes and where all the other boats were located.Give us a little picture of what it must have been like 1975.

Fred Stonehouse

Well, I can tell you that you were running on really pretty standard equipment. You didn't have any of the electronic gear that we have today. You didn't have the stress monitors that are now on the boats for the hull, make sure they loaded evenly and don't overload one section of the vessel.You didn't have the really radar systems that we have today that are, I don't know, that we had on the lakes.

Walt Lindala

Okay. Now we've talked about that kind of thing where we see how technology has changed. That's been a very important part of it, but it's also going to be maybe an understanding.I mean, was there, was there a hubris or something with the shipping industry that thought that they could manage the big lake? Because we've, we've talked with a lot of people on this podcast about how you don't mess with the big lake when it gets mad, when she gets mad. I mean, was there some of that in there too?

Fred Stonehouse

I think there certainly was, but I also think you can reflect back to 1913, the November storm that came across then that quite literally damaged 47 ships on the great lakes. Nine of them sank with all hands. And those were at the time, modern vessels, steel vessels that were not much different than what we're looking at with Fitzgerald, a little bit smaller, a little bit slower, built a little bit differently, but otherwise really the, the basis of the Fitzgerald design came off these nine great lakes carriers, all of which again, disappeared with all hands.The last one was finally found two weeks ago, the Carothers. That was also 250 dead sailors, one storm.

Frida Waara

One storm, 250 lives.

Fred Stonehouse

From a freshwater hurricane, she exceeded 75 miles an hour in wind and cat one hurricanes, only 74.

Walt Lindala

I'm really amazed that there's all these stories and, and all of these, these things that have happened yet the Fitzgerald granted by its relative age 50 years ago, but the Fitzgerald for some reason has just sort of gone beyond in terms of the lore. What was it that has made the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald so well-known?

Fred Stonehouse

Oh, she has sailed from fact into, into legend of the great lakes. And really it's, it's been a strange transformation that's taken place, but not really an unexpected one. Fitzgerald had two things going for her.If we look at that as a, as a winning combination, number one, she sank with all hands in a position and in a method that was unknown, still the mystery. And third, she had Gordon Lightfoot. I mean, Lightfoot's record, the Edmund Fitzgerald was number one in the Canadian billboard for six months.

Walt Lindala

Wow. So that song, that song has really taken off and, and helped keep this, turn this into the legend. I mean, it's turned into a lore, hasn't it?

Fred Stonehouse

It really truly has. And there's so much memorabilia out there now on Fitzgerald and 50 years later, I mean, you've got books out, you've got a Christmas tree balls, you've got snowballs, you've got cups, water, beer coming out of a Great Lakes Brewing Company in Cleveland, for example, the Edmund Fitzgerald porter. There must be several hundred items, all of which in its own way keeps the idea of Fitzgerald alive.And it really also speaks to the power of the Great Lakes and that you have to be careful of them. You, you don't mess with them if you're not prepared to do that. The caution you need to have on Lake Superior, as we know, living here is one thing that we have to live by, especially if you're a boater.

Frida Waara

Fred, as maritime historian and author, you've been researching and the sinking since, since it first happened. And now after that 50 years, I mean, that's a really long time to study. You've written many, many books about the tragedy.Has your theory changed and why and how the ship sank?

Fred Stonehouse

No. I went into it with the concept that I probably was going to be able to come up with maybe what happened and present several scenarios that were likely or possible, but to come up with a finite reason for it. I mean, she's 550 foot down and she's been off limits to divers now, as the Canadian government has declared it to be a a graveyard, an underwater graveyard, quite literally.So none of the photography that you might normally do on a sunken ship to be able to do a, at least a quick archaeological look at it certainly was never done. And I mean, the Fitzgerald has been off limits to diving since 1989 when the Canadian government officially placed her on the list of known graveyards. So that means that any analysis you may be making of the ship in person by using a small underwater submersible or a remotely operated vehicle or other systemic approach can't be used with Fitzgerald.So you don't have the ability to go down and look for the crack or look for something that would be a smoking gun. That's, that's off the table.

Walt Lindala

We're talking with Fred Stonehouse here today. He is maritime historian, author, lecturer, and we're talking about the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald, November 10th, 1975. We're on the 50th anniversary of this season.Fred, you know, we talked about this a lot. You don't really have necessarily a defined theory as to what happened, but you mentioned it a moment ago that the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald in particular was very instrumental in changes that have got us to the point here where 50 years later, we don't have one of these tragedies. We had spent, it hasn't happened.And, and, and we get some bad storms still and everything. And, and we see them every season here on the lakes, but things are moving through the Sioux locks every year. I mean, what really has changed?You'd mentioned technology, but what else?

Fred Stonehouse

Well, two things, technology, as you mentioned, uh, the pilot houses since Fitzgerald after one Fitzgerald went down, the industry kind of went into high gear on this thing. And so that at least the Coast Guard, you looked at what you had, you looked at what failed, you looked at what broke and said, how do we fix it? And one of the ways they fixed it was to provide updated technology and navigation, particularly to the bridge.So you were using the GPS system. Eventually you started with the old Lawrence sea system. You went to chart plot plotters.You went to AIS for missile identification. You added depth finders to be able to tell how the depth of water you're navigating in. You install the PRBs, the little device that will pop off the bridge.If anything happens, a Fitzgerald hits the water automatically deploys an antenna and in effect becomes a little buoy telling people where the ship is that she's in trouble and enable the vessel. So you've got a response capability in that way. And looking at home monitoring where you've got stress testers now in different locations of the hull.So as you're loading the vessel, you're making certain that you're not overloading one portion of the hull, let's say, as opposed to another portion that would place too much stress on it. So that technology change and adaptation and additional crew change, or rather crew training has been critical to this whole period. We've had a 50 years of really safe navigation that played into it hugely.But I think more important than that even is the attitude of the shippers and the attitude of the sailors on the lakes today. They really, to them, the Fitzgerald was yesterday. To them, they understand it.They've really had a lesson in the power of the dangers of the great lakes and they live by that now. So when you see a storm coming through the lakes, you can pop on your AIS system and see that the ships are no longer going down the middle of the lake into the teeth of the gales, so to speak. They're now seeking self-anchorage or safe anchorage along Munising Bay or Keweenaw Bay or in the Apostles, somewhere where they're out of the worst of the storm until it blows over, or even just hugging the shore a lot closer with the sheltering wind.They have become conscious of what they're doing and the fragility, I think, of not only systems and electronics and human life, so they navigate in a much, much more safe method. If you don't believe me, just hop on your AIS next time we have a storm coming through and see where they are.

Frida Waara

Yeah, that's what's so fascinating because I think I've seen the numbers, at least recently, the numbers are about 4,500 vessels go through the Sulox. I mean, that's a lot of traffic when you consider they open up maybe mid-April through mid-January. So, how many vessels?And then, when we think about the loads that they're carrying, the Fitzgerald at 729 feet. Fred, share with our listeners a little bit about the shape of this boat and, you know, that load was taconite, left Superior, Wisconsin. You know, how much weight was there, you know, basically in the middle of this boat that, you know, it's a couple of football fields.

Fred Stonehouse

Well, you certainly hit on a tough subject. You've got to make certain when you load the boats that you load them evenly so that the cargo is well balanced throughout the length of the entire vessel. Fitzgerald, again, at 729 feet, had 21 cargo holes to load and unload through.When the Fitzgerald hauled out of Superior, Wisconsin, she had 26,000 tons of taconite pellets on board. All that cargo was laid out very carefully in the ships so that it was balanced. Great Lakes freighters have a ratio of about 1 to 16, 1 to 18 of length to beam of the ship, so it makes them a bit tender.They become prone, if you will, to capsizing if not properly balanced out. That's not normally a problem. Ballast tanks on either side of the cargo hold, so you can balance your ship very well and keep her steady almost regardless of the weather.That's what Fitzgerald would do. Putting that cargo in perspective, by the way, that 26,000 tons, that's enough steel to make 7,500 American automobiles. Wow.That's 1975 automobiles, real ones. Not the little buggy things, you know, that we've got now.

Walt Lindala

We're talking with Fred Stonehouse here today. We're talking about the history of the 50th anniversary of the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald on Lake Superior. Fred Stonehouse is a maritime historian, author, and lecturer.Let's talk a little bit about Fred Stonehouse. Fred, what was it that's always kind of brought you toward water and boats and what's kept you going with this and writing all of this kind of stuff and researching?

Fred Stonehouse

Well, I think as a kid, we grew up on the Jersey Shore, and that was before they had condos and houses and big gambling casinos and all that garbage that you see there now. So it was an opportunity as a kid to exercise your imagination, to learn to swim, learn to dive, learn the boat, learn all the water skills. So when I came out to go to school at Northern, of all places, you had those interests with you.And at the time, particularly scuba diving, was not something that was being done muchly on Lake Superior. Too cold, the equipment wasn't really set up for yet. But once it was, it was an opportunity to really exercise your interest in maritime history, to look for shipwrecks that haven't yet been found, to dive the ones that have been, and then to realize just how much fun it was.And could you pass this on to other people? Could you get other folks as excited about what you were doing in the shipwrecks as you did yourself? And that's where I kind of segued into writing.So you were writing and recording this history for other people.

Frida Waara

Fred, has anybody written as much about Lake Superior and the Great Lakes shipwrecks as you have?

Fred Stonehouse

If you weigh volume, probably not. So I've always just said that I'm going to overwhelm you with quantity, not quality. That's my plan anyway.

Walt Lindala

Are you working on any other books? Are you working on any projects right now?

Fred Stonehouse

Yes, I have one that's been done for about four years. And it's just in draft form, which is the history of the 16 U.S. Lifesaving Service crews across the country that were awarded the Golden Lifesaving Medal. Those are extremely rare.You only get it through demonstration of extreme acts of valor. And I wanted to find some way to honor these men and to have at least a record written so that it's there. Someone else can find it after I do.

Walt Lindala

All right. So now we have a question here that Freda put together that sometimes might put some people on the spot when we talk about Lake Superior. But you've studied Lake Superior so much.The question is, do you have a favorite spot on the Big Lakes shoreline?

Fred Stonehouse

I think it would bounce between being on the beach at Sandpoint, Munising. Because it's so reminiscent, I guess, of parts of New Jersey, the shore anyway. And the other part that would be for absolutely opposite reasons, because Sandpoint is a welcoming area.It's fun. It's calm. It's peaceful.You know, go down the shore another mile or two, and you're right into the picture rocks. They are not calm and peaceful and welcoming, especially if you're there and the winds are blown and the lake is howling. That puts a different feeling to everything.So if you balance out the yin and the yang, that would be it.

Frida Waara

Good old pictured rocks. You know, Fred, as a kayaker, and especially when you're talking about loading a 729 or a thousand footer, my goodness, my little 18-foot sea kayak, you bet, I got to pay attention to how even the placement of just where I put my stove and how it affects maybe my compass, all those kinds of things that you really pay attention to. But coming into Sandpoint is also, you're absolutely right, it's one of a peaceful place.And sometimes the way the waves braid there on that sandy, there's sandbars all over the place. So, you know, you might take off at hell-bent hair-on-fire speeds because you want to get out to the Miner's Castle or wherever it might be, but you realize you're in like two feet of water. So you got to be careful, but it can be one of the most treacherous places because those waves will roll a long time before they hit the shoreline there.So we get some really good surf, you know, if you got your helmet on and you're ready to do some surfing on Lake Superior and your kayak, that's a good spot, but I appreciate that. And, you know, pictured rocks, truly, but all of the parks that we, the National Parks of Lake Superior Foundation, how we see them as all so different. And the shorelines of this lake, yes, it is one big body of water, but it is as different as night and day, you know, from all of the different spending time up in the Copper Harbor area.I mean, that's elephant skin rock up there. That is tough.

Fred Stonehouse

Yeah. Yeah. I always challenge people to drive around Lake Superior and see the other half of the lake because the other half, the northern half is fantastic, but it's in really great opposition to what you see in the south.

Walt Lindala

Yep. Very much so.

Frida Waara

Oh, wow.

Walt Lindala

So real quick, if people want to find out a little bit more about you, about your works, about what you've written, Fred, what's a good way for them to do that?

Fred Stonehouse

Well, the easy way is just hop on the line and do www.frederickstonehouseoneword.com. And that's a little website I've got that really serves more just of a record of what I've been doing and what I've done. So I think that would be the easiest way to do it.And if somebody's interested in the new book on the Edmund Fitzgerald, aviarycolorstudios.com would be a good place to pick it up from or any bookstore either.

Walt Lindala

Yeah. Yeah. Dude, I want to mention that you have the 50th anniversary sort of edition of the story of the Edmund Fitzgerald.It is out now. And I had a chance to look at that and had a conversation with you separate from this about that. Very good information.I guess my question that I would have, and just as we wrap up with you here, as you look back on 50 years of the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald in 1975, what would you as the author, the lecturer, the historian, what would be the leaving thought you'd want to give someone here as we wrap up about that incident?

Fred Stonehouse

I think I would hopefully let them know or reinforce the idea that good has come of it. It was a terrible tragedy and a terrible wreck. Certainly the people that had neighbors and relatives aboard and family members, et cetera, suffered a grievous loss.But in the bigger scheme of things, I think, again, as we've described a little bit earlier when we were talking, an awful lot of good has come out of it. And I think there's every reason to say that that good will continue to come out of it. But it's only at the cost of a good ship and crew.

Walt Lindala

That's Fred Stonehouse. He is maritime historian, author, lecturer, joining us to talk about the 50th anniversary of the loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald on Lake Superior. And of course, a lot of other things tied to Fred and his career as the author and lecturer and historian.Fred, it was a pleasure having you on here with us today. We really do truly appreciate your time and your insights on it. And we appreciate the work you have done to not just keep this story going, but other stories of loss and successes on the Great Lakes.It's been something.

Frida Waara

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for dedicating your career to our water.

Fred Stonehouse

Well, thank you for allowing me to chat and hopefully get some people excited about it.

Walt Lindala

Fred Stonehouse, maritime historian, author, lecturer, giving us some really unique insights into his research and reflections on a big event on Lake Superior. Of course, that loss of the Edmund Fitzgerald, that was November 10th of 1975. Frida, just talking with Fred, he is one of those gems that we have here in Lake Superior, in this area, the Great Lakes region.We've talked to so many great people through the podcast here and the history of podcast over the last few years, but it's always a pleasure when we get to sit down with someone like Fred and spend that time. That was just a great conversation.

Frida Waara

Yeah. You know, Fred has been there, done that. He lives here in Marquette.He's been our mayor in Marquette. He knows that lake. And when he puts his pen to that story, you know, he's been researching and really putting together, as he said, understanding what that lake is and sharing it with the world.Absolutely. Respect. You just have to have respect.And I really loved his final words that good has come of it. It was such a horrible tragedy that just paralyzed. I remember being in the newsroom and just stopped dead.Like, oh my goodness, what has happened? And yet, that whole industry, there's an attitude shift.

Walt Lindala

It's changed. It's gotten better. It's gotten safer.We don't hear about vessels sinking like that. That's been a good thing. Yes, some good did come of it.And hopefully for those of you that have listened in today on the podcast, you'll reflect on those thoughts as we hit November 10th, 1975, 2025, the 50 years. And remember those who were lost, not only on the Edmund Fitzgerald, but other vessels on not only Lake Superior, but the great lakes as certainly a good memorial and memoriam for them.

Frida Waara

You know, we've had guests that shared with us that we see freight trains, we see the semis driving. We understand goods and services are moving all around our country, but everything that comes into the United States comes in a ship. And those ships out there, 4,500 alone pass through the locks.So imagine what the entire great lakes, that kind of, you know, it's not a smooth paved road with stop signs. And, you know, it really does. And we need to really make sure that the weather forecasting, you know, we can't skimp on that.That is really an important piece of the safety is just having that information out there so that these folks can find that shelter if they need it, because coming up, they're going to be moving November, the gales of November on through December through probably mid-January. It's cold.

Walt Lindala

Absolutely. We're hitting that time of year and we hope that everybody stays safe for.

Walt Lindala

Now, again, if there's something that you'd like to hear us talk about on the podcast, maybe you want to find other episodes of this, get going through the National Parks of Lake Superior Foundation. You can send messages there through the website as well. Let us know if there's something you'd like to have us cover here on the Lake Superior podcast. We'll take a look into it, but that's going to do it for this edition of the program. And of course, as always, we certainly appreciate you and your input. You can again do that through the foundation website.I'm Walt Lindala.

Frida Waara

I'm Frida Waara. Thanks for listening. The National Parks of Lake Superior Foundation, NPLSF, is the only official nonprofit 501c3 fundraising partner of the National Park Service for all five U.S. National Park sites on Lake Superior.

Walt Lindala

To learn more about NPLSF projects and programs, you can visit the website at nplsf.org or friend them on Facebook. I'm Frida Waara. And I'm Walt Lindala.Thanks for listening to the Lake Superior podcast.

Frida Waara

This podcast made possible with the support of the National Parks of Lake Superior Foundation and Media Brew Communications.

Walt Lindala

This episode brought to you by Cafe Imports, Minneapolis-based importers of fine specialty green coffees, independently owned and operated since 1993. Cafe Imports has been dedicated to decreasing its impact on the earth through renewable energy, carbon neutrality, and by supporting conservational efforts in places where quality coffee is grown and also where quality coffee is consumed. Where does your coffee come from?

Frida Waara

And by the National Parks of Lake Superior Foundation. As a nonprofit, we rely on support from listeners like you. If you like what you hear, please consider a donation.To learn more and make a gift, visit us at www.gosuperior.org.